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2 part dosing

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by abower, May 1, 2015.

  1. abower Well-Known ReefKeeper

    466
    Ryan, Ia
    Ratings:
    +74 / 1 / -0
    Started two part dosing roughly 4 weeks ago and had quite a hill to climb to get leveled out. At any rate, BRS made it out to dose the mix of calcium to Alk to be 1:1. My Alk has jumped up to 11 with calcium still trailing right at 400. I adjusted the pump schedule down for the Alk and for day have the pump on manual off until I'm back around 8.

    What's others experience with this?
     
  2. beckerj3 Expert Reefkeeper Board of Directors Leadership Team GIRS Member

    West Des Moines, IA
    Ratings:
    +615 / 2 / -0
    For me it was the other way around. Seemed like I always needed more alk than Calcium. And I constantly tweaked it that way for many years. Then I found an article which re-inforced the need for equal parts. I'll try to find it and post a link. I re-adjusted and have been dosing equal parts ever since. So, I support the equal parts recommendation.

    That said, what test kits are you using? Are you confident that you are getting accurate results? If so, I would suggest trying a one time adjustment to get the calcium up to 420-425, and alk 8-9. Then try equal parts again.
     
  3. Bud Loves Bacon Website Team Board of Directors Leadership Team GIRS Member Vendor

    West Des Moines, IA
    Ratings:
    +1,818 / 14 / -0
    IMO alk at 11 is fine for a reef tank. I think 9 is the ideal point with a generally accepted range of 9-11 for Reef, and up to 14 for FOWLR. 425 for calcium is the happy spot but 400-450 and you're fine.

    Don't forget Magnesium, this is a critical and often overlooked one as well. 1325 is the ideal but 1275-1350 is fine IIRC
     
  4. abower Well-Known ReefKeeper

    466
    Ryan, Ia
    Ratings:
    +74 / 1 / -0
    Where I'm worried is a couple of the LPS looked pist.
    I'll have to bust the red sea kit out I bought off KP. Hard to use that kit when I'm holding my baby girl. Using API for quick test. Could, In this case, be water too clean. I haven't had to clean glass in a week. Skimmate is a green tea vs Mississippi mud a month ago I'll rebalance and turn the Alk back on and ride it out another couple days. Make sure all doesn't creep up more yet
     
  5. hart

    hart Well-Known ReefKeeper

    730
    Ratings:
    +131 / 0 / -0
    Generally 2 part should be dosed at 1-1 ratio, calcium test kits have a large error range while alk is pretty accurate so it can be hard to tell how much calcium get used while alk is easy. I think the ratio is 20ppm calcium to 1 dkh alk used in tank.

    What I have found that can really throw this off is what salt mix you are using. Often times they do not contain a balanced amount of ca/alk ratio. What salt do you use and have you tested the ca and alk of it? Some mixes are heavy ca and low alk or low alk and heavy ca, this can throw off the numbers with 2 part, but again remember most calcium tests are not very accurate. When I was using reef crystals, for example, some batches would test well over 500ppm ca, but around 10 alk - so dosing 1-1 2 part would make it look like I was adding too much calcium over time. Some people have the opposite problem with low ca and high alk.

    The other thing I would l look at is the dosing pump calibration to make sure both are dosing the same amounts, and to make sure the solutions are correctly made.
     
  6. abower Well-Known ReefKeeper

    466
    Ryan, Ia
    Ratings:
    +74 / 1 / -0
    I mixed to the directions. As good as measuring cup is... Pumps are very close, both jugs are same height but not without my manipulation. First go I f'd up the programing and swamped the tank with alk. Balanced things over a week.

    Using reef crystals till this box is up then switching to I.O. no need to have amped up salt when dosing. Thought bout trying the fritz but long drive to waterloo for salt.

    I'll toss and update when I use the redsea kit vs API
     
  7. hart

    hart Well-Known ReefKeeper

    730
    Ratings:
    +131 / 0 / -0
    Sounds good! Did the alk go from 8 to 11 over the course of 4 weeks? Any WC during that time? What is your daily alk consumption?
     
  8. abower Well-Known ReefKeeper

    466
    Ryan, Ia
    Ratings:
    +74 / 1 / -0
    Follow up to pumps. I plan to test the true output soon. Just babying it along as I get familiar with the process
     
  9. abower Well-Known ReefKeeper

    466
    Ryan, Ia
    Ratings:
    +74 / 1 / -0
    I'm dosing 50 minutes a day and alk was steady at 8-9 . ca 380 to 400 water change was last Sunday. Tuesday alk was 9 ca 400. Last night alk was 11, ca 360. So something tweeked. Not a chemist. Just brainstorming.
    Bud is right tho, I have yet to test mag.
     
  10. hart

    hart Well-Known ReefKeeper

    730
    Ratings:
    +131 / 0 / -0
    Hmmmm. So you were dosing the same amount daily and everything was holding fine with ca ~390 and alk ~8.5 and even after waterchanges it was pretty consistent there if I am reading correctly. Then it suddenly went from 9 to 11 in 2 days with no other changes to the tank? Did you do multiple tests to confirm? That is pretty strange for alk to increase that fast when everything was going smooth.
     
  11. abower Well-Known ReefKeeper

    466
    Ryan, Ia
    Ratings:
    +74 / 1 / -0
    I didn't test after water change just knowing the disadvantage of having the amped salt.
    I agree with you, seems strange and is why I started the thread. I do all my testing 8-9 pm. Will follow up tonight.
     
  12. Bud Loves Bacon Website Team Board of Directors Leadership Team GIRS Member Vendor

    West Des Moines, IA
    Ratings:
    +1,818 / 14 / -0
    Could be the case. How long has the tank been set up, and have you made any other changes (no matter how insignificant)?

    So are you testing the salinity of your freshly mixed SW and your tank water before doing PWCs?

    If you are still doing water changes, and the salt you are using has good Alk and Cal in it, then why would you want to go to a salt that is not made for reef tanks and use dosing to offset that? Just trying to understand your rationale, that's all...

    If you rely on dosing for keeping your parameters in check and then reduce water changes, IMO that's going on the wrong direction. The reason is that dosing 2-part BRS will, over time, cause an ionic imbalance when combined with reduced water changes. Probably not a huge deal if you are still doing PWCs at a reasonable level (10% every 2 weeks).

    Now, if your RC is causing your Alk and Cal to go too high without even dosing, then you might switch to a 50/50 mix of SS and RC.
     
  13. abower Well-Known ReefKeeper

    466
    Ryan, Ia
    Ratings:
    +74 / 1 / -0
    @Turbo's Aquatics@Turbo's Aquatics .
    Tank has been reset since end of January, livestocked over a couple weeks at end February. Maintained the tank for a month added carbon, then 1 week added GFO, then 4 weeks ago started up the 2 part.

    Salt is usually mixed for a couple days before water change. Mix to typically .028 and back it down to .024/5. Tank runs same. All testing with refracto. Changing 15 gallons total ~ 10%.

    Idea with dumping reef crystals is: if I maintain my tank at a typical reef level by dosing, is it not a good idea to use a flatlined salt rather than a salt that is made to replace depleted nutrients? Maybe my understanding of the two salts is flawed. I thought RC was more or less to help boost the Ca and Alc depleted.
     
  14. abower Well-Known ReefKeeper

    466
    Ryan, Ia
    Ratings:
    +74 / 1 / -0
    Should comment, a few weeks ago I had an algae bloom that required a major tank clean I did probably two weeks ago. Figured that was just a late term cycle process. Phosphate was .01 ppm and nitrate undetectable. Haven't cleaned glass this week and have a couple spots on glass. Feed once to twice a day and am not frugal about it. Plus occational coral feedings early morning when some LPS are extended.
     
  15. abower Well-Known ReefKeeper

    466
    Ryan, Ia
    Ratings:
    +74 / 1 / -0
    Sump room: filter socks through dark rock chamber, skimmer, refuge, return pump.

    _20150501_105933.JPG
     
  16. Bud Loves Bacon Website Team Board of Directors Leadership Team GIRS Member Vendor

    West Des Moines, IA
    Ratings:
    +1,818 / 14 / -0
    nitrogen cycle takes 4-6 weeks. Reef tank cycling takes 6 months. See #15 in this article

    The algae bloom is generally part of the reef cycling process. Even using cured live rock will not change the 6 month settle-in time frame because anytime you change the arrangement of rock or make big changes to the flow pattern, you cause the bacterial population to go through a death/growth cycle, which can lead to algae, dinos, cyano, etc outbreaks, usually 2-3 weeks after you make the change. So get the tank set up how you like it, then hands off.

    Cooking the LR can help avoid a really bad outbreak, but probably won't completely avoid it. Any corals added in the first 3-6 months are going to be exposed to all kinds of chemical interactions that we don't measure, because we can't without sophisticated lab equipment. Lots of things going on in the first 6 months, and many of these can cause the pissed off coral syndrome. So just run a good amount of carbon, maybe some Purigen too. Can't hurt.
     
  17. GoodGreef Well-Known ReefKeeper

    681
    Clive, IA
    Ratings:
    +239 / 2 / -0
    In my 75 gallon lps/sps tank I recently raised my daily dose to 36ml of Cal and Alk and 6 ml of Mag with a dosing pump. I had been at 32/32/6 I have added some corals that are growing well so my Alk has fallen to 142ppm/7.952 dKH. Hoping when I check today the Alk will be at 8.1ish and continue to rise. My calcium is consistently at 425-435 range no matter how much I change the dosing amount. My mag stays around 1290-1300. Rather than simplify it to much. This article always helped me understand the alk/cal interaction. http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-12/rhf/ Dont worry if your Cal is too low or high unless it appears extremely low. As long as the Alk is staying in an acceptable range the calcium will either slowly rise or you can add some supplemental to get to your comfortable range and then watch and see what the calcium does.
     
  18. GoodGreef Well-Known ReefKeeper

    681
    Clive, IA
    Ratings:
    +239 / 2 / -0
    Oh and let me add that your lower calcium may be because you need to lower your 1:1 dosing amount. Lowering your dose of alkalinity and calcium will cause the calcium to be increased. It seems counter-intuitive to lower the calcium youre dosing along with the Alkalinity, but doing so has little change to the calcium in your tank. The real benefit is that because your ratios are apparently off, (Alk at 11 but 400cal), reducing the Alk will reduce demand for calcium and thus what IS dosed will begin to build up as the Alkalinity won't be consuming it at such a high rate. This is a very sloppy way to describe the interaction but I hope it makes sense. I would 1:1 dose 2 part in an amount that takes your alkalinity down to 9.5ish and you should see your calcium slowly rise up towards 425ish as there is less alkalinity to consume it, even though you're reducing the calcium dosed.
     
  19. abower Well-Known ReefKeeper

    466
    Ryan, Ia
    Ratings:
    +74 / 1 / -0
    Its my two frogspawn and hammer that are unhappy. Setosa, montis, chalice, and favias are brilliant.

    @Turbo's Aquatics@Turbo's Aquatics do you agree or disagree with my rational on the salt mix?

    @GoodGreef@GoodGreef I like your comment on over dosing. In history I started so low that I had a long was to catch up, so I started dosing high to try and catch up over time and then pull back then I got close. perhaps I exceeded where I should be.
     
  20. Bud Loves Bacon Website Team Board of Directors Leadership Team GIRS Member Vendor

    West Des Moines, IA
    Ratings:
    +1,818 / 14 / -0
    I don't know that I have a hard stance but as long as you are aware of the result of dosing 2-part, then you're fine. Using an ionically balanced source for dosing is better than using BRS, but BRS is easy and cheap. So if you don't want to spike your A/C when you do a water change (resulting in the need to possibly back off dosing right after a PWC), IOSS it is.

    What would be better is using something like Kalkwasser in the top off water, Kalkwasser drip, Calcium Reactor, etc. Then you can use BRS to make adjustments as necessary.
     

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