Advice? Green Hair algae

Borky00 · Nov 30, 2015

I have been battling some green hair algae for several weeks now in a 90G tank (+15 in the sump) which has been set up for about 16 months. I know my Phosphates are high I think the last reading was .14 I don't have any GFO and have not tried any chemicals yet. I have been cutting back on feeding, doing 10% water changes weekly and cleaning out the skimmer (large enough for my system) weekly. I have been pulling the algea as much as possible every water change. Recently (3-4 weeks) I have been getting the Red Cyano and I thought it may be because my MH bulbs were getting old so I replaced them about 3 weeks ago.

While doing research I see some people believe rocks can leach out phosphate while others believe this not to be true. I have two sets of live rock in my tank the first set is some I bought live from another reefer about a year and a half ago and that rock is mostly free of both the green hair algae and cyano. The other set of rock was dry rock I purchased from a store and I cleaned it and then slowly added 1-2 pieces over several months. It is this set of rock that seams to be housing the bulk of the hair algae and cyano.

Over the weekend I took of the of newer rock and did a dip in Coral Rx Coral dip to see if it would at least kill off some of the algae. We will see how that worked.

Anyway, my questions:
1) Is high phosphates most likely my issue?
2) Do you believe rocks can leach out Phosphates?
3) How long will this last if I keep up my water changes?
4) Will boiling the rocks help and how do I go about doing this?

I would like to avoid chemicals, and I will get GFO is I MUST but would like to avoid more components.

Oh and if it matters I have some sand but it is very thin and a bare bottom in some places due to the current. There is no algae growing on the sand.

Thanx all for the advice.

Bud · Nov 30, 2015

1) It's possible. While the jury may be out on this for some, it is still entirely possible and by some people's observations (anecdotal evidence) when you have a high phosphate situation and then you put those rocks in to a low phosphate situation, the phosphate can be released. This is the "phosphate flow" scenario which is arguable either way. Generally this happens in 2 ways, one is when you have soft deposits of waste, and these will be easy to remove by scrubbing/powerwashing/etc, otherwise you would probably see a short term effect of algae growth. The other is chemically deposited phosphate in combination with calcium in a crystalline matrix. This can be dissolved away with acid like muriatic (hydrochloric) and this is why you see people doing this. It can also be performed via way of bacteria called PSBs or Phosphate Solublizing Bacteria. This is the one that is kind iffy because technically while it can happen and does happen in nature for sure, it is yet to be solidly proven that it does in our aquariums. This is where anecdotal kicks in, and this raises it's head in algae scrubber applications (which is why I know about it). What happens is that if you have a neglected tank (or rocks) that have absorbed waste in various forms and then you put a scrubber on the system and it lower the N & P down, the bacteria go to work and release the phosphate by creating a localized area of low pH (you need pH below 7.0 to dissolve the calcium matrix) and then as the phosphate is liberated, the algae grows. The problem is that this takes time because the localized low pH created is eliminated the second the calcium matrix is dissolved to release the phosphate. So this is why it is under debate. But what seems to be clear is that it does happen, or something like that is happening.

2) see above

3) a long time, because it has nothing to do with water changes and everything to do with the phosphate stored in the rocks, if the above is what is happening

4) never boil rocks. Ever. This is how people end up in the hospital. "cooking" rocks is not literally boiling them, it is essentially speeding up the liberation process by placing the rocks in a container and nailing it with phosphate absorbers, a skimmer, dunking, water changes, etc to suck all the junk out of the water, using bacteria to do this work in the absence of light (i.e. PSBs possibly working, but with no light, there's no algae - your phosphate gets removed from the water via media/filtration)

The other option is to acid bath the bad rocks, then "cook" or "cure" them to finish off the process and prepare the rocks for the tank (they will be cycled after the cooking process)

Other say H2O2 can kill off the algae and this is true but it doesn't get to the root or the problem

In the tank, if you have corals that you can't remove, you can run phosphate media, fuge, algae scrubber, etc to keep the phosphates removed from the water column and let the algae and bacteria do the job naturally, but this can take months or even over a year before the rocks clear up - but it has been done, repeatedly.

HTH

Dave · Nov 30, 2015

My comments:
1) Is high phosphates most likely my issue? Yes, it sounds like it.
2) Do you believe rocks can leach out Phosphates? Absolutely! I never add rock to our systems without first cycling it in saltwater and testing for phosphates - recent example - I got some rock from a fellow hobbyist who swore it was good clean rock but I put it in a tub with SW and tested it after a week and guess what - phosphates are incredibly high. Typically, if you get rock from someone getting out of the hobby just assume it is going to leach phosphates. Also, BRS Pukani rock is notorious for leaching phosphates and I can vouch it is true - again if you address before adding to the tank it is not a big deal and it is great rock.
3) How long will this last if I keep up my water changes? Potentially a long time.
4) Will boiling the rocks help and how do I go about doing this? No, I agree with Bud - do not do this - "cooking rock" does not involve heat (probably one of the bigger misnomers in our hobby!). Below is a link if you want to read more (post #11 summarizes it). I have done this method as well as the acid bath that Bud mentions and both work although cooking is a much longer process (4 months for me). There is another method Bud didn't mention and that is the use of lanthanum chloride (a swimming pool chemical) which is very effective and reduces phosphates in a fraction of the time of "cooking" them and is my preferred method at this point. I always do it in a tub and not in the display tank so you don't have to worry about any impact on fish etc. or as precise in the dosing. I do 50% weekly water changes until phosphates are down to desired level. I then rinse in fresh saltwater before introducing to display. HTH

Cooking Live Rock - Exact Process? - Reef Central Online Community

Fence13 · Nov 30, 2015

A couple things from my experience. You said you've cut back on how much you're feeding, that's great. That'll be the first thing.

What's your clean-up crew like?
Also what algae eating fish do you have? Either of these items may need to be beefed up if possible. Particularly a strong cleanup crew.

Also bacteria dosing is something that I've found that works. I've used it on two tanks to help take care of cyano issues. Dr. Tim's is the one I used most recently and was recommended to me but YMMV. Do the best you can to make sure the bottle wasn't frozen (hard to do this time of year).

abower · Nov 30, 2015

I'm agreeing with the post above and was in same situation as you. My rock was a garden of hair algae.

4 step method that worked perfectly for me

1.Take rock out and wash clean brush etc to remove organics. Tap water okay at this point.

Place in totes with cheap power head. Filtered water. Roughly add 1 cup bleach per 10 gallons. 1 day.

2. Remove and rinse. Prep next mixture of quinchlorac which is in seaklear (see photo). 1/2 cup seaklear to 10 gallons water. Add rock after product is mixed. 2 days.

3. Rinse rock in RO water twice, 1 day each.

4. Add to tank to cure. (NO LIVESTOCK). Cure for 3 weeks, start adding LIVESTOCK roughly 2 small fish a week. Monitor ammonia

--- Auto-Merged, Nov 30, 2015 ---

--- Auto-Merged, Nov 30, 2015 ---

One last thing. When in seaklear you will notice precipitation, this is quinchlorac bonding with the phosphate and should be expected.

blackx-runner · Nov 30, 2015

Treating without tearing down the tank is going to be water changes, some kind of phosphate remover, and lots of time. I would say GFO being the safest bet for tank inhabitants.
Keeping it there is going to be a change in husbandry. Less feeding, more water changes, and probably continued phosphate removal media. Algae scrubber is also something that may be worth looking at. A dedicated place for the algae to grow where it can be easily removed.

In my tank I run an L4 algae scrubber, Big *** skimmer, biopellets, and I think 1lb of GFO in a large BRS reactor. I change approx 10% water volume/week.
When I first started my cleanup project my phosphates were higher than yours and I was sucking through GFO pretty quickly, but as the levels came down it started to last longer.

Borky00 · Dec 1, 2015

Thanx for all the good advice. Sounds like the best solution is to get out as much of the rock as I can afford to remove and "cook" it according to the link Dave provided.

I will probably do this is all my rock 1/3 at a time to make sure it is good an clean, not just the rock with all the algae on it.

And Bud, your chemical knowledge is dizzying but detailed. That will take some time to absorb. I will be rereading it as I continue my research into the cooking process.

Borky00 · Dec 1, 2015

Ok I did more reading on the "cooking" process. I guess I took some bad advice, or miss-understood, when I was told I could just add dry rock to an established tank.

One thing I am confused about is that if my rock is loaded with phosphates I thought I read that corals do not like the phosphates. I do have one rock that is 1/2 loaded with hair algae and the other 1/2 is a meteor shower that is just growing like crazy. Do some corals not mind phosphates and others die off from it?

Question 2: if I am "cooking" the rock in a tub outside a tank is a heater a must or just keep the water above a certain temp? I am assuming keep the water at the same temp as what the main tank would be.

Borky00 · Dec 1, 2015

Another question about saltwater, I know I will use RO/DI water but I read someone used table salt to save $. Since this is just bacteria that I am trying to preserve can I use table salt or would you suggest the cheapest fish saltwater salt, I am sure I would not need the Reef salt.

Dave · Dec 1, 2015

You can cook the rocks at room temperature.

I would not use table salt. Just use a cheaper salt like instant ocean.

Borky00 · Dec 21, 2015

Update: I pulled all the dry rock that I dropped in my Display tank out and put it in a 29G tank to cook. a couple weeks ago. The DT is looking good but I keep forgetting to test the Phosphates, I will do that soon. I do still have a little green hair algae but nothing like it was. I am still doing weekly 10% water changes to drop the Phosphates down even more.

The cooked rock tank after 6 days of "cooking" had a PH reading of .71! The second week (I had to put off the water change 7 days instead of 3-5) the phosphates dropped down to .40 and most of the algae is gone but I still needed to pluck some of it. Lots of crud on the bottom of the tank both weeks.

Thanx all for the links and advice! I guess the advice I was told that you can drop a piece of dry rock in your tank was ok but you should not drop 40+ pounds in there even if it is over a several week time span.

Borky00 · Feb 21, 2016

Update/Question:

Since I started I have been testing the phosphates in my water.
12/6 - I started cooking about 40-50 lbs of rock my 90G display tank (plus about 15 in the sump) read a phosphate at .14.
12/12 - .71
12/20 - .40
12/23 - Display tank tested 0.00
12/24 - Added a new rock that was really dirty
12/27 - 1.01
1/3 - .84
1/10 - .43
1/17 - .68
1/24 - .64
1/31 - .56
2/9 - .40
2/14 - .50
2/21 - .48 (water temp was 76 degrees)
2/21 - tested new salt water 0.00 to make sure it is ok

I can see very little sediment what I think I am seeing is just the dust from the rocks as they bump against each other.

Shouldn't I get to 0 on my phosphate tester?

I thought the process only took about 6-8 weeks. Should I be concerned?

Smith11 · Feb 21, 2016

Removing fish and stopping feeding could halt adding more phosphates in the meantime, that way your rocks will be the only source and that will go away after a while. This will give your skimmer and GFO which you definitely should use a chance to catch up at which point reintroduction will be viable.

Placid · Feb 22, 2016

Kent Marine Phosphate sponge and lights off for two days...

Borky00 · Feb 22, 2016

@Smith11 I have been cooking them in a separate tank (read the posts above) These readings are from the separate tank with just rocks in it (and saltwater and a heater and pumps). My question now is how long do I need to keep them in the separate tank before I can move them back into the Display tank with the fish.

Smith11 · Feb 22, 2016

Borky00 said: ↑

@Smith11 I have been cooking them in a separate tank (read the posts above) These readings are from the separate tank with just rocks in it (and saltwater and a heater and pumps). My question now is how long do I need to keep them in the separate tank before I can move them back into the Display tank with the fish.
Click to expand...

Until they stop leeching phosphates

blackx-runner · Feb 22, 2016

^ that. Monitor phosphates.
If they are really high to begin with you can try using the sea klear mentioned above to speed up the process.

Borky00 · Feb 23, 2016

I'm in no hurry and I would like to avoid chemicals if I can. I just want to make sure it is expected to drop or if it is as low as it will go using the cooking process (isolated tank, no light, changing water every 5-7 days etc.).

jeremy · Feb 23, 2016

As slow as that's going down, I would add a phosphate remover.

Borky00 · Mar 13, 2016

These darn rocks are climbing again!

since my last post on 2/21 I have gotten:
2/28 - .40
3/6 - .43
3/13 - .53

Could a sponge on a rock that appears to be ding off be causing the phosphates to not want to drop?

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