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Herbie?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by ThyRaven, Jul 7, 2014.

  1. ThyRaven

    ThyRaven Well-Known ReefKeeper

    919
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    I have 2 - 1" holes cut into the center of my tank at the same height. Bud built me a sexy black overflow box and is drilled at the same location. I cant take the noise anymore so need help figuring out this whole herbie overflow setup. My googling skills must be shot as I cant seem to locate the thread about it on ReefCentral with details on how to build it.


    I have parts to do a Y on the outside of my tank with the center going to the bulk head which will have 90 degree elbows on them. Do I have one facing down and the other facing up or both off to the side? Both drains will be 1.5" from the back of the tank to the sump.
     
  2. Zach Well-Known ReefKeeper

    605
    Coralville, Iowa
    Ratings:
    +21 / 0 / -0
    for a herbie style you want two returns. they can face either way but the key is to have one higher than the other. the lower one is a straigjt 'ine into the sump under water. a valve in the line lets you create a full siphon. the second overflow will handle just a tpuch pf water but more importantly any extra that flows high of the power goes out it prevents over flowing.
     
  3. ThyRaven

    ThyRaven Well-Known ReefKeeper

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    So I need to take and add like a half inch of PVC to the top of the elbow on one of the drains? Now the hole in the tank glass is big enough for a 1" bulk head. I have a knock off Reeflo Dart that pushes a crap ton of water but the skimmer will be fed off that same pump so it should knock it down a bit. Just dont want to push to much water and have the overflow not be able to handle it.

    Also thought about making my return 2" all the way to the tank and then adapting down to 1" but that might be over kill.
     
  4. Zach Well-Known ReefKeeper

    605
    Coralville, Iowa
    Ratings:
    +21 / 0 / -0
    A good baseline is double the return size for suply. So if your suplly from sump os 1 I ch your return to sump or overflow should be 2 inch. This is of course if you are using a large pump.

    Now if you have two one inch pipes. And tie them together. The tied together side will need to be the same size as the total of the pipes to the sump. So if you tie the two 1 inchers together. They need to feed into a 2 inch pipe all the way to the sump. If you bring it back to 1 inch si gle. Then you will be restricting the flow to essentially one inch. So there is no benefits to plumbi g the two together!
     
  5. abower Well-Known ReefKeeper

    466
    Ryan, Ia
    Ratings:
    +74 / 1 / -0
    My recommendation is to double the drain to the return. So a 1" return would have 2 - 1" drains or equivalent diameter. A 1 inch pipe has .79 sq inch area. So you need 1.58 sq inch drain or 1.4" (1.5") dia single pipe drain. Use this model. Too big of drain is extra cost and will make more noise.
    πr^2 = pie radius squared = 3.14 rad.*rad. = area of circle.
    Diameters are not a good judge for fluid calcs. We used this quick figure for preliminary drawings in the civil industry. For these small systems (feet rather than miles) its good practice.
     
  6. Zach Well-Known ReefKeeper

    605
    Coralville, Iowa
    Ratings:
    +21 / 0 / -0
    Right on Abower. The next question is when the return is plumbed together into a 2 inch is there benefit or a detriment to plumbing it back into a one inch right before the sump?
     
  7. abower Well-Known ReefKeeper

    466
    Ryan, Ia
    Ratings:
    +74 / 1 / -0
    If it is exceptionally short and enough head, yes. But don't put all your eggs in one basket. Make sure you have an emergency spill way if you get too much back pressure. I think I know where your going. I'd just put in a 2" ball valve to throttle back pressure rather than a fixed situation. It sounds like your trying to maintain a head in the drain?

    I just went nuts on a 125 set up with plumbing. I used two stand pipes with groves cut through the top face. This made an obsurd waterfall noise. I placed a piece of plastic over the top to leave just the grooves exposed and now just get a water motion sound. On the sump end i plunged the outlets below water level in the filter socks. This part as always been silent.
    I will sketch it up in cad over my lunch. Take picture after work
     
  8. Blaze

    Blaze

    114
    Ratings:
    +8 / 0 / -0
    Also, After I reduced the noise on my overflow, I went to Menards and bought foam pipe insulation and wrapped all my plumbing. Amazing how much it muffled the noise of the water running through the plumbing. Its nearly silent now and I can watch tv in my living room without having to pee constantly!
     
  9. ThyRaven

    ThyRaven Well-Known ReefKeeper

    919
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    Ok so that was all umm confusing...


    My plan is to have 2 INDEPENDENT drain lines. At the overflow box in the DT they'll be 1" due to the hole size drilled in the glass. Once they pass thru the back of the DT they'll go up to 1.5" all the way to the sump. At the back of the DT I plan to use sanitary "Y"s that way I can build a small stack to allow air thru a cap or ball valve on top to eliminate the toilet flush / gurgling sound.


    aka this - - - > http://www.beananimal.com/media/405...00x375.jpg


    with only 2 drains instead of 3 and minus the ball valves below the "Y"s
     
  10. abower Well-Known ReefKeeper

    466
    Ryan, Ia
    Ratings:
    +74 / 1 / -0
    The drain sizing sound good. Not familiar with Herbie's but am sure you'll be satisfied. Quite popular.
     
  11. ThyRaven

    ThyRaven Well-Known ReefKeeper

    919
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    I'd like to do the full bean animal but it would just look weird with the way the holes were drilled in the glass plus to big of a pita to clear the containts of the tank out and drill a 3rd hole. I can swap the bulk heads and replumb the drains without draining the whole tank. I'll just have to keep an eye on it after I fire it back up after the change out and hope I dont flood my basement. Shop vac and towels will be standing by though lol.
     
  12. ThyRaven

    ThyRaven Well-Known ReefKeeper

    919
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    Well I was finally able to get the pond tank installed. I have a knock off bean animal overflow only using 2 drains but the i can actually hear the TV with out turning the amp up on the surround sound. There is still a low rushing water sound but I can deal with it! I could build a stack to a ball valve or a cap. Just havent had time to. Plus the noise doesnt bug me that bad yet lol


    [​IMG]


    I separated the drains where they are now independent of each other from the back of the tank all the way to the filter pad they drain out on. I think I have the return pump tuned to where if one drain was to get clogged or blocked the other should be able to handle it. I've also gotten my monster skimmer running. Cant wait to start seeing crap in the collection cup / bucket.


    [​IMG]
     
  13. blackx-runner Administrator Website Team Leadership Team

    Cedar Rapids, IA
    Ratings:
    +738 / 5 / -0
    How do you have a knockoff bean animal with only 2 drains? LOL. The only difference between a herbie and a bean animal is the addition of a third drain strictly for a worse case scenario situation. This will be dry until the unlikely chance its needed. With the 2 holes you can have a herbie, but its not a herbie until its plumbed correctly.

    Your 2 independent drains are a good start. One of the drains should be closed and running full siphon. You control the amount of water through the drain and the siphon effect with a valve below the drain. I actually like gate valves because they're easier to adjust, but a ball valve will work. The second drain should be a durso standpipe vented with an airline or valve positioned right before the max water level of the tank. Its not necessary, and I don't think usually recommended to valve this drain. In the event of a clog in the main drain this needs to flow as much water as possible. The flow through the drains and from the return should be adjusted so that there is just a small amount of water running through the open (durso) standpipe.

    I'm right down the road from you, if you need a hand getting some of that plumbing done, or just another set of eyes to check out what you have. I'll be more than happy to lend a hand.
     
  14. abower Well-Known ReefKeeper

    466
    Ryan, Ia
    Ratings:
    +74 / 1 / -0
    Sweet. Great sump. Must be on the other side of wall or just that big of a DT?

    As promised but late, attached is what I came up with and drains are silent.

    Drain is 1.5" with grooves blade width at 1" depth sliced across top of pipe.

    Cap is a 3" threaded plug drilled to eliminate air trap and a 3/4" scrap glued into recess for alignment when you get a surge from diving in for cleaning. The cap has around 1/2" lip to help block an open air transfer between drain and the room (the silencing effect). It was my "value engineering" approach to work with what I started with, the 1.5" grooved stand pipe.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 22, 2018
  15. ThyRaven

    ThyRaven Well-Known ReefKeeper

    919
    Ratings:
    +1 / 0 / -0
    I'm cool with what I have. I may add stand pipes to the tops of the sanitary Ys to eliminate a little more noise. I need both drain lines 100% open in order to keep up with the pump.
    Abower - I have a 60 gallon tank just like it but it is setup to be a frag tank. Could easily be a sump like my 100 gallon though lol. I'll have a posting up on stuff for sale later in the week.
     
  16. blackx-runner Administrator Website Team Leadership Team

    Cedar Rapids, IA
    Ratings:
    +738 / 5 / -0
    If you're adding Y's and opening both pipes to air, then you're losing flow potential, as well as the safety aspects of the system, and don't have a herbie style drain at all. The great thing about the design of the herbie is the great amount of flow potential, and almost no noise. Which it sounds like you were looking for in the first place. And you can run both drains without vavling back the drains at all if you want. Your main drain is a full siphon, closed drain. Full siphons don't gurgle or make noise and flow much more than an open drain ever will. The valve is simply for tuning. If you can leave the valve fully open and maintain the full siphon then great, you have tons of flow. The second (open) drain should be just running a small amount of water. This keeps enough flow to maintain the siphon on the first drain, but not enough to cause any noise or gurgling of the second drain. And in the event the first drain becomes clogs the second drain can handle the extra flow. If you have it vented correctly when the water level gets high enough it will close off the vent, go to a full siphon flow tons of water and you *shouldn't* have any issues with an overflowing tank. If you're running more than a small amount of water through the second drain you need to valve back the flow off the pump.

    I think with very little changes we can get that thing dead silent and still flowing a lot of water. Plus it will have some safe guards from floods that it sounds like you have had before because of your drain set up.
     
  17. ThyRaven

    ThyRaven Well-Known ReefKeeper

    919
    Ratings:
    +1 / 0 / -0
    Never had any flooding issues due to the drains on the tank. I flooded my utility room because I put my sump in backwards and had to maintain a higher water level in it in order for the return. I'm not done with the new drains. I understand they need capped off to complete the herbie setup and I haven't made up my mind on valves for them yet. I also want to run the drain lines differently at the sump. The flow through a 1" bulkhead is right around 600gph correct? I was told the return pump I am using has a rate of 3800 gph.

    I've also been toying with the idea of raising the skimmer where I can filter sock both drains from the DT and the drain on the skimmer. I might be nuts for the sock on the skimmer but hey I have so much crap floating around in my water it makes me sick to look at it, hence the major overhaul on some of the plumbing and some rock work.

    Where is everyone getting there favorite gate valve from these days? I've also thought about redoing my return plumbing just because of all the coupling I've done to it over the years. Need to sit down and plan out anymore changes I might do that would involve a break off of the return pump. Its currently feeding my skimmer as well as the dual returns into the tank. Thought about doing what Turbo did at the dentist office and making a line of valves at different points of return over the back of my tank.
     

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