prestone driveway heat for twopartsolution?

Posted By fishogre on 12/19/2007 8:00 AM
first i dont know that saying they arent safer then homemade, but whatever floats you boat, the main thing saying manufactures and stores over charging, anyone that ever has worked retail would also say that there is a standard markup. You have to be able to pay your bills there is alot of overhead in running a business, exspecially in this industry, think of what you buy and think the stores have to pay all that plus rent wages and things that die, all i have to say thats a good way to support your local stores
Perhaps overpriced wasn't the right word.   The problem is when you have to use large ammounts of this stuff (like 8oz a day) but you have to purchase it in relatively small amounts (64oz or less) you start to realize that you are paying as much for packaging and stuff like that as you are for the product itself.   It just doesn't make good economic sense to use those products in a large tank (at least if you're on a budget like a lot of reefers).
Also, I'm very much aware that local stores must mark up their products in order to make a profit and stay in business.   I have no problem with that at all.   I think most of the club members like myself try and support our LFS's whenever possible.
-JB

 

The other thing I would say about this is that (IMO) the smart fish stores will start embracing these DIY ideas and find ways to make money off them in the same way that websites like twopartsolution.com do.   If one of the LFS's here started selling kits for making DIY two-part, I know I would be buying it from them rather than online (or Home Depot, etc) and I'm sure I'm not alone.   I would be more than willing to pay a markup if it meant that I didn't have to drive all over town looking for ingredients and I didn't have to go to the trouble of ordering online.
A great example of this in action is Sea of Marvel.  I believe Hung is now selling home grown phyto.   This seems like a brilliant move to me and I bet he ends up making a lot more money off of it then he ever would selling DT's or similar products that are already marked up when they come from the manufacturer.
-JB

 

Posted By jbrunken on 12/19/2007 12:13 PM
The other thing I would say about this is that (IMO) the smart fish stores will start embracing these DIY ideas and find ways to make money off them in the same way that websites like twopartsolution.com do.   If one of the LFS's here started selling kits for making DIY two-part, I know I would be buying it from them rather than online (or Home Depot, etc) and I'm sure I'm not alone.   I would be more than willing to pay a markup if it meant that I didn't have to drive all over town looking for ingredients and I didn't have to go to the trouble of ordering online.
A great example of this in action is Sea of Marvel.  I believe Hung is now selling home grown phyto.   This seems like a brilliant move to me and I bet he ends up making a lot more money off of it then he ever would selling DT's or similar products that are already marked up when they come from the manufacturer.
-JB
That is a great idea. Someone should give that idea to hung. I don't think Scott at Iowa Pet Foods or Adam would be interested though.

 

Posted By fishogre on 12/19/2007 8:00 AM
first i dont know that saying they arent safer then homemade, but whatever floats you boat, the main thing saying manufactures and stores over charging, anyone that ever has worked retail would also say that there is a standard markup. You have to be able to pay your bills there is alot of overhead in running a business, exspecially in this industry, think of what you buy and think the stores have to pay all that plus rent wages and things that die, all i have to say thats a good way to support your local stores
You have to remember this though as well.  Let's say a 50lb bag of icemelt costs $20 (i've found the calc. chloride for $14).  Home Depot or whoever has already marked this up to make a profit on this product.  They're buying it from the same supplier as the companies that are making the additives for our tanks.  But now instead of paying $20 for 50lbs we're paying $20 for probably 5 lbs of the exact same product.  They're just repackaging it.  So now Home depot was making money on the $20 for the ice melt (because they have to mark it up to stay in business like you stated) but the companies that make these other products are just price gouging as far as I'm concerned.
Randy's Holmes Farly is a chemist as others have stated and is a very knowledgeable person.  If there is anyone to trust he's the man!  If you'd like to see some articles he's written I'm sure we can point you in the right way.
Here's another little dramatization for you.  Let's say you want to buy
some suckers.  You can go to the sucker store and pay $5 for an
individually wrapped sucker, or you can go to the grocery store and buy
a whole bag of suckers for $5.  What would you do?  /site/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/_default/emoticons/wink.gif  Just something to think about!

 

Hmmmm. I cant see lfs selling do it yourself kits for anything.
1. They have to start buying from new vendors to supply the parts needed for these diy kits. This meens the lfs now has to invest time into researching and coming up with build lists, drafts or schematics, searching for new vendors to supply them or spending the same amount of money on them as the DIYourselfer would. The lfs would be investing alot of time putting together kits (research, test fitting, updating.) this meens the diy kits are going to cost a decent amount of money to keep costs in line and for the time spent.

2. This also poses the probability that someone or somepeople will inevitably come into the lfs buy a kit, get home only to mess up the build, function, or have something catasrophic happen. Guess who gets the blame, the local store who invested all this time researching designing and building the kits. not only could the lfs have someone trying to blame them, some of the diy products might not be proven. The lfs is not going to want to jeapordize someones investment no matter how much money they have invested.

3. Last, supporting the lfs doesnt meen having them supply you with cheap, diy products or kits because thats all you want to buy. These people are here for your questions, to give advise and help their customers. Its not only about spending and saving money but social interaction

 

I came upon this thread over on RC on the Chicago forum.  I think that you should check it out if you are using some of these products .
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1274659

 

Well, I didn't interpret it as not using two part but in being careful about using similar products that have changed ingredients. 
I myself just ordered a kit from two part since I'm tired of paying for B-ionic!  Maybe I'll get lucky like Covey and it will be here soon!

 

i think what some are trying to say is that ingrediants change to get the overall ingrediant and you have to be careful but if your not a chemist yourself might be a good idea to read up every time you need to reorder your chemicals, and that is pry why pet stores wont carry your 2 part mix if things change whos to blame if it wipes out a tank, the only one would be the lfs cause they dont have enough time to always read up on this stuff. with chemicals bought from manufactures they can refer you back to that company and pry even give you the number. plus i think another person also already said need to support lfs, how many people you see doing that, order this online order that seems like veryone orders everything off the internet these days most stores will order what you want if you ask might take a couple weeks and yes you would pay more for them but then people order it off the internet. then they want the lfs to contribute to the clubs and help support them were they might be lucky to see $1000-1500 at max from a club of 50-100 people each year that wont even normally pay rent for half a month, its cheaper to maintain a warehouse then a retail front, everything in business is more expensive even phone service if it has a retail front its expensive

 

i believe in supporting lfs, as well as all local private/small ma n pop businesses in the community.  but, if i am going to pay twice as much i expect my patronage to be appreciated...when i stand in a shop for 45 minutes with 400 dollars worth of merchandise [which could have been had at half that price from dfs] in my arms waiting/looking for an employee to check me out and answer a few questions, it's was obvious that i, and my money, was not a priority.
as to the concerns regards to the quality of chemicals...most chemical constituents in consumer products  all  come  from  one of the  5  or  6  chem  producers...in most cases they  are  just  diluted  to save money...that [size="-1"]CaCl2 in the driveway salt is more than likely the same product as the [/size][size="-1"]CaCl2 sold by the aquatic industry...just a different label and sales slogan.
[/size]''and that is pry why pet stores wont carry your 2 part mix if things change whos to blame if it wipes out a tank,''
it would be very difficult to hold or expect any producer of aquarium chemisty responsible...there are too may variables that ''could'' have contributed to the tank crash.
any and all of your dosings can be made in the garage...i use and recommend
http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/homepage/Site_level_pages/CatalogHome/Chemistry_Catalog.html

 

well i hope everybody i has noticed that i have so far stayed out of this but i pretty much agree with everyone to a certain extent, the only thing i really want to ask is to benji i want to check to see what store that had happened in cause if it was ours i would like to know that is not acceptable i know we get busy but i dont want people to feel that way after they leave our store, if it was i would like to know who it was and if there are ever any complaints about anything or anybody let me know and i will make sure that wont happen again. you would be surprised what happens in retail i think most of the time we are more like the movie barber shop i have kicked people out of the store cause they make others customers uneasy but mainly fun to kick peds out.

 

Ok, lots of interesting replies to this thread.

Nick:  For the record I have never personally had a bad experience at Pet's Playhouse.   I will freely admit that I don't always agree with the advice I'm given there, but I don't always agree with advice I get from club members either, so there's nothing wrong with that.   I've said it before and I'll say it again:  I think Pet's Playhouse is a great LFS and we're lucky to have it in Cedar Rapids.
On the issue of the LFS's having to take the time to research the DIY stuff before selling it, they may or may not be true.   Growing phyto and putting together 2-Part kits is easy and in all reality, not that time consuming.  It takes about 1 hour of research to learn everything you need to know to be successful with either of those.    Some things (Maxi-Mods for example) might take a bit more time, but might still be doable.  My belief is that there are opportunities out there for opened minded LFS owners.   At some point, some stores will start doing this (Hung is already selling home grown phyto & food) and IMO those stores are going to make it lot tougher for the stores who aren't as willing to adapt.   I may be completely wrong on this, but time will tell.
On this issue of DIY products wiping tanks, well, I can go into any LFS out there today and buy 10 different products that will quickly wipe my tank if not used properly.    I'm having a hard time seeing much of a difference.   If LFS owners are worried that they DIY products might lead to more of the blame for problems being put on them, one solution might be to keep the DIY kits behind the counter and only provide them to people who specifically ask for them and use clubs and similar means to promote thier availability.  
As for LFS's being a place to get advice and socialize, that may be true, but the same is also true for the club.   I don't know of any shops that have their own forums or chat rooms (or even websites for that matter), so for getting advice and social interaction on a daily basis, it's pretty hard to beat the club.   The other thing to remember is that LFS's (as with all companies) are in business to make money.   This is fine, but when it comes to giving advice, LFS's are in a position where the potential exists for a conflict of interest.   In other words, sometimes the best advice isn't the advice that makes money for the store, at least not in the short term.  In my opinion, a good LFS will realize that a person who doesn't get frustrated and quit the hobby after spending $100's or $1000's and failing is more likely to be a long term customer.   Luckily, I think the two shops I deal with most frequently (SoM and Pet's Playhouse) fall into the category of shops that aren't just out for the quick buck at the ultimate expense of the customer.
This leads me to another point.   Someone seemed to imply that if someone don't buy everything from the LFS's, that they aren't supporting their LFS's.   I think that's an incomplete point of view.   The bottom line is if I had to buy everything from the LFS's, there is no economical way I could stay in this hobby, at least not in a way that is rewarding to me.  By the same token, if I had to buy everything online, I wouldn't be in this hobby either.   For me, I buy things were it makes sense for my personal situation and that means buying certain things online and buying other things from the LFS's.   If I had to quit the hobby because I can't afford it, how is that a good thing for any LFS?   Is that better for the LFS then me only buying a certain percentage of my hobby related purchases from them?  No, it's not, because 100% of zero is zero.   Also, buying online is not always a matter of price, but availability...   What LFS can I walk into and buy Tunze pumps?   Which one sells Octopus skimmers?   Can they order them?  Maybe, but it's not realistic to think that I as an educated consumer am going to wait an extra two weeks and pay an extra 8% for a product that I can have at my doorstep in a day.   For me, the inverse is true for livestock.   A could get just about anything I want online but I don't.  I always buy livestock from LFS's because I don't mind paying a bit more to see the condition of the animals before I buy them.
Last but not least, on this issue of what does an LFS get from supporting the club...   That is an interesting question.   First of all, what does it cost for an LFS to support the club?  Nothing.   All a LFS has to do to support the club is help it by posting or handing out flyers.   If a LFS wants to take it to the next level and donate money or products, that's fine too but the #1 way to support the club costs absolutely nothing.
What does the LFS have to gain by supporting the club?   The club can provide web exposure (since most of them don't have their own websites), The club can provide a way for do targeted advertising for free, and best of all the club can provide the LFS with an additional resources to help turn new hobbiests into permanent hobbiests.   If you look at it from this point of view it's in the LFS's best interest to have the club be as big as it can be.
Now, what are the risks of an LFS supporting the club?  There is only one that I can think of.   It's the possibility that as a new hobbiest becomes more savy, they may be less inclined to go to the LFS for all of their purchases.   This is a valid concern, but in my mind, it's offset by some of the items I mentioned in the paragraphs above.:  It's better to have a lot of people that spend a smaller amount of money for a long period of time, than it is to have people spend a lot of money once or twice then disappear forever.
Ultimately, I think the club can have a great relationship with just about any LFS out there, but it's really up to the LFS's how that goes.   Ultimately, the club is going to be here no matter if the LFS's support us or not, and people who want to become more savy at the hobby will find us through the normal channels (web search, reef central, etc).   If the LFS's choose to look at us as the enemy, then that is their decision, but I think that if they really look at the club from a larger perspective, they would see that we are not bad for the hobby and thus ultimately not bad for them.  On the contrary, we are a resource that they can tap into to enhance and improve their business if they understand how to tap into what is available to them from the club.
Anyone tired of reading yet? /site/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/_default/emoticons/smile.gif
-JB

 

What JB said!

One other SHORT comment, I hope. I am business owner and manager. Certain LFS owners get mad about clubs and the internet. Many business owners in other areas have the same attitude about new things and changing times. The fact is these are the business that will shrink and possibly die. I feel sorry for the LFSs that complain about clubs and the internet. The reality is: neither is going away, we are here to stay. Every business either needs to embrace their realities or suffer the consequences. If LFSs (and other businesses) would embrace clubs and the internet and figure out, with ideas like the ones presented here, how to make these realities work in their favor their business would be better for it. It doesn't do any good to fight and complain about realities that won't change.

OK, down from my soapbox.

 

it's hard to put it better than the previous two posts...a successful lfs [or any business] must evolve with it's products/services to satisfy the flux in trends and consumer needs. some are content with being average and service/rely on newcomers to hobby. i believe it would be in the best interest of the lfs to accommodate diy'ers even if means that their store front looks more like a hardware store rather than an aquatic shop. some people just like to tinker with things and get pleasure building from scratch and take pride in looking back at the finished product; and this usually has little to with costs of material or the finished product.

 

i must say that some really good points are made in all comments and i must agree that not everything needs to come from lfs thats impossible no one does all their shopping in one place. And the part of the 2 weeks is in some occassions and it would only be the first time. The reason i have started looking at this club is one it is the local club but mainly it seems like a pretty diverse club with pretty knowledgeable members. I just recently started into reading more about saltwater and merchandise. Because i was noticing that most the pros dont run what we even carry and that good we need to look at everything thats out there. For the most part if we dont get out there and look we dont know except for what the bigger manufactures make thats the only ones that are shown to us. For instance when we were closing down tonight i found a fax that just came about octopus protein skimmers and were we can actually get them. Didnt know we even had a supplier that carried them. And another thing is that i didnt even know people were making their own additives. I am know looking into were to get the two part solutions. I want to get most of the things people run thats what i am doing here plus becomming a bigger fish nerd (as some family calls me) then ever. These forums have really been helping me to achieve that when people are asking questions. And as i find things i will being having posts to see what people think if its to high and keep trying or move onto another item. Thanks for more input and a quit interesting topic

 

I agree that it's good for fish store owners or employees who sell reef fish and coral's to be involved in reef/reef club websites.  It's alway good to be aware of hot topics, what coral's and fish are in demand as well as equipment, food and additives.  I have been to several pet stores that seem clueless as to what we are into.  I remember asking one of the local fish store employees about chaetomorpha and they had no clue what it was.  Also, getting a magnesium test is darn near impossible at any of the fish stores hear in the quad cities.  I think it would greatly enhance local saltwarter businesses, if they would post what cool items that are available.  Several local businesses are involved in BNARC and Uberfrags.com and their stock moves fast.

 

JB and BOD,
It sounds like at least fnvarner from Pets Playhouse is interested in being involved. Maybe would could open a new section on the forums for local area per shops and they can post specials or just pictures of live stock and whatever. I don't know if we would get enough participation but I can talk to Scott at Iowa Pet Foods.
This could be a great way to show LFS's how supporting our club is worthwhile to them. I think everyone now wants to go to Bloomington/Normal. I know I am going to try to figure out a way to get there someday soon. Maybe the club could have that as an activity - Road trip to Johnny's.

 

Posted By jtesdall on 12/22/2007 10:17 AM
JB and BOD,
It sounds like at least fnvarner from Pets Playhouse is interested in being involved. Maybe would could open a new section on the forums for local area per shops and they can post specials or just pictures of live stock and whatever. I don't know if we would get enough participation but I can talk to Scott at Iowa Pet Foods.
This could be a great way to show LFS's how supporting our club is worthwhile to them. I think everyone now wants to go to Bloomington/Normal. I know I am going to try to figure out a way to get there someday soon. Maybe the club could have that as an activity - Road trip to Johnny's.
This is entirely up to the BOD.   I certainly have no problem with it.  
-JB