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Salinity issue

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by PotRoast, Apr 26, 2011.

  1. PotRoast

    PotRoast Well-Known ReefKeeper

    999
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    +24 / 0 / -0
    I have been having issues keeping my salinity up. Has anyone ever had this problem?
    One of my theories is that the problem is coming from my davy jones skimmate locker. It collects five gallons of skimmate and water before I dump it. I am wondering if perhaps when my freshwater ATO replenishes this water that it drops the salinity in my tank....what do you think?
    Has anyone had any issues with erratic salinity readings from their apex?
    How low of salinity is toxic to corals and fish? Mine drops from 35 to 33 in two weeks or so....
     
  2. Bud Loves Bacon Website Team Board of Directors Leadership Team GIRS Member Vendor

    West Des Moines, IA
    Ratings:
    +1,821 / 14 / -0
    Here's how I calculate salinity drop/rise for purposes of adjusting salinity or even calculating tank volume.

    240g display, 125 volume in the sumps, assuming 1/2 full and 10% DT volume of rock, that's 240-24+60 = 276g water. Salinity of 35 ppm. To simplify take 275 x 35 = 9625 salt gal-ppm. Take out 5g @ 35 = 175, you have 9450. You add back in 5g RODI @ 0ppm, still 9450. 9450 / 275 = 34.36 ppm. So if you remove 5g SW and replenish with 5g RODI, in a system containing 275g, you should only from about 2/3 of a point.

    In order to drop 2 full points, assuming 275g system water, you would have to drop your salt gal-ppm to 9075, or 550 gal-ppm salt, at 35 ppm that's 15.71 gallons replaced with RODI. So in your case, you would have to be dumping out a FULL 5g bucket of skimmate every 4.45 days.

    Post how often you dump the skimmate, and how full the bucket is. From that and the rate of salinity drop (2 points in 2 weeks) I can backwards calculate your system volume, and if that is correct, your skimmate locker is the culprit.
     
  3. PotRoast

    PotRoast Well-Known ReefKeeper

    999
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    Thanks Floyd. I suck at math and will have to trust your calculations.

    Sometimes I dump 5 gallons every five days, sometimes once every 10 days. Every once in awhile it will fill up in two days...but that is because my skimmers went nuts and dumped tons of water into the locker....before I got the skimmate locker the water would have filled the cups and overflowed into my sump....

    And I lose a lot of water to evaporation. But I don't know how much. I would think close to 2-3 gallons a day.... But that water shouldn't figure into my salinity since the salt stays in the tank.

     
  4. PotRoast

    PotRoast Well-Known ReefKeeper

    999
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    Oh yeah.....what are your thoughts on adding salt directly to my sump? I do it all the time to raise my salinity and am wondering if that is stupid.
     
  5. Bud Loves Bacon Website Team Board of Directors Leadership Team GIRS Member Vendor

    West Des Moines, IA
    Ratings:
    +1,821 / 14 / -0
    If you average dumping the bucket about every 5 days, then dropping 1 point a week would seem to jive. No the evap will not remove salt from the water, at least not short term. There may be some lost due to salt creep but that is a long term thing so it never figures in really. As far as putting salt directly in the sump, I personally wouldn't do it. The reason that most people suggest that you let your salt mix for 24 hours before putting in your tank is that there are reactions that are occurring after the salt is dissolved, and letting those take place and stabilize is important so that you don't introduce stress into the tank. There are several schools of thought on this, I would say that in an emergency you can mix up salt and add to your tank once it's dissolved, but not unless you absolutely have to. This is more for corals than fish, but it depends on your fish. If you keep sensitive/delicate fish, mix 24 hours. Same goes for corals.

    I think placing salt directly in the tank really only goes for FW / brackish where you can put the Epson salt in a cup and let it dissolve like you see at Petco. But I could be overshooting here, it might be perfectly fine to do, I just don't know for sure. It might be just fine as long as you didn't let it actually get into the tank and blow around undissolved. If you've been doing it, and have had no problems, then if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

    The other thing you could do is figure out how much salt you need each week, and how much top off water you go through, and then just add a little salt to your top-off water to adjust it as you top off. You would have to watch your Cal and Alk though if you run a doser.
     
  6. FishBrain Expert Reefkeeper

    New London
    Ratings:
    +399 / 6 / -0
    Dude your skimming way to wet IMO. I would tune those skimmers back bigtime.
     
  7. AJ

    AJ Inactive User

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    +1.  My total water volume is between 180 and 200 and I have my skimmer tuned to take about 1 gallon of skimmate a week.  I have no issues with salinity drops.
    --AJ
     
  8. PotRoast

    PotRoast Well-Known ReefKeeper

    999
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    I don't think I am skimming too wet. But I don't really know. It is hard to tell now that I have the skimmate locker I guess.

    What I can tell you is that I have it set so all my foam goes up into my neck, and deposits scum on the top of the foaming chamber, the inside of the neck, and on my lid. I do not see any foam (or water) creeping up over the neck and into the collection cup. My collection cup doesn't really collect any scum for that matter.

    Sometimes my skimmer will go beserk and shoot a lot of water up. In the past this event would overflow the collection cup and dump back into my sump. But now with the skimmate locker it overflows into the cup and down into the locker. note: I have not seen my skimmer overflow like this in sometime. I am only assuming it does it and that is what is filling up the locker. OK another thing is that I have TWO skimmers, and they are both hooked up to the skimmate locker. AND they are both large skimmers designed for 300 gallon tanks.

    I don't know. It is driving me crazy.....and another thing that drives me crazy is that long haired hippy over at BRS.TV selling me all their wares. I am *this* close to buying one of those milwaukee digital salinity meters thanks to him.



     
  9. FishBrain Expert Reefkeeper

    New London
    Ratings:
    +399 / 6 / -0
    What dose the skimmate look like? Is it dark stinky sludge or dose it look like water tinted brown?
     
  10. PotRoast

    PotRoast Well-Known ReefKeeper

    999
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    The scum in my skimmer(s) body, neck and the undersides of my lid is thick, gunky, stinky, gross and disgusting. The collection cup is remarkably clean. The skimmate locker is clear liquid for the most part. Well, kinda diluted poopie water but mostly clear. I wouldn't feel horrible about adding it to my sump in an emergency water loss situation.

     
  11. Bud Loves Bacon Website Team Board of Directors Leadership Team GIRS Member Vendor

    West Des Moines, IA
    Ratings:
    +1,821 / 14 / -0
    I would have to say your skimmer is going nuts and blowing out perfectly good water occasionally. Must get to the root of that problem. Your skimmate should not be clear liquid and you should not even consider dumping it back into your sump if it's working right. Why 2 skimmer?

    Personally I don't think salinity is so important that you need to nail it down digitally. I just use a refractometer and calibrate it with distilled or RODI before use each time (I keep one of those API vials full of that all the time). Got mine for $20 on eBay.
     
  12. PotRoast

    PotRoast Well-Known ReefKeeper

    999
    Ratings:
    +24 / 0 / -0
    Bud,

    Couple things.

    1. Adding salt. I agree don't do it But since I do, I add it direct to my upper sump. It dissolves, then filters into my lower sump, then is pumped to my main system. I only add maybe six cups at the most at one time. The reason I have to do this is because of my salinity issues and because if you try to dissolve that much salt in water you have to add a lot of water and it just adds too much water to my system and is a PITA. I use Reef Crystals and they say right on the box you can add it to water and use it immediatly.

    I still think don't do it but I am not convinced enough NOT to do it.

    2. The clear skimmate I also believe is from an overflow. I don't add it back in. I was just saying if I had too it is clear enough where i wouldn't feel too bad about it.

    3. Calibrating your refractometer should be done with calibration fluid. It is not recommended to calibrate with RODI water. Mainly because you are calibrating at zero. With the calibration fluid you are calibrating at 35 salinity which is much closer to the reading of the water you are reading (salt water).

    4. Why two skimmers? Because I like to overdue it. And because Calfo told me to do it.
     
  13. AJ

    AJ Inactive User

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    Do you have a scheduled time where you turn off your return pumps but leave your skimmers on? You may want to consider adding some code to your Apex that makes the skimmers dependent on the return pump with a short delayed start after you turn your return pump on. That will make sure that the skimmers have a consistent water level. You don't do an automated water change, do you? Anything that could change the sump water level may be problematic for your skimmers.


    --AJ
     
  14. PotRoast

    PotRoast Well-Known ReefKeeper

    999
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    Thanks AJ. My skimmers sit in a 50 gallon rubbermaid. The water level never changes in it. The water drains from the first floor, down to the basement, into the rubbermaid with skimmers, then down into the sump.

    Are you guys telling me your skimmers never overflow and go crazy? I thought this was normal......
     
  15. Bud Loves Bacon Website Team Board of Directors Leadership Team GIRS Member Vendor

    West Des Moines, IA
    Ratings:
    +1,821 / 14 / -0
    My point with the skimmate is that it should not be clear enough that you would feel comfortable dumping it back into your sump. It should look so gross that you would never consider doing such a thing. If it is clear enough that you would consider doing it in an emergency, then something is not right with your system. That's what I'm saying. It's definitely from an overflow.

    As for the calibration thing, mine came with instructions that said to calibrate it with distilled water or RODI at zero. I agree that it would probably be better to use calibration fluid. This thing is supposed to adjust for temp automatically too, and supposedly you can calibrate it once and then not touch it, but I have never been able to figure that out because I take it with me to the tanks I maintain and the slightest temperature shift of the aluminum body throws the calibration off, so I just find it's easier (and cheap) to re-calibrate it before each use. I take samples home and test sometimes water from 3 different tanks and I always rinse with the RODI and check calibration between each tank, I know each tank well enough to know when a reading is in error or if something is off. IMO, you really only care about salinity when you're matching for a PWC and then it's just the relative difference, if your calibration is off by 2 points but the new and old water have the same reading then it's a match. I think if you get a refractometer for one tank and leave it in the same place in your house all the time, it'll stay pretty well calibrated. So that was a long rant man, wasn't it?

    As for the salt, like you said, nothing is wrong with your tank, so I see no problem doing it that way if you don't. I just read from someone that it is always a good idea to mix up saltwater and let if mix overnight before doing a PWC, but like you said, it's a pain to do that when you just need to raise it.

     
  16. Bud Loves Bacon Website Team Board of Directors Leadership Team GIRS Member Vendor

    West Des Moines, IA
    Ratings:
    +1,821 / 14 / -0
    Oh yeah, and none of the skimmers on tanks I maintain go crazy, and none of them have constant water levels either. They're in sumps where the water level drops until I put water in every 5 days or so like Taki, or like China Garden where he waits until the tank is blowing air and then adds 5 gallons at once to a 30L sump. I never see signs of overflow in either tank. I admit I should fix that...
     
  17. AJ

    AJ Inactive User

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    My skimmer is more active after feeding than normal, but it never goes crazy and overflows unless I change something to make it behave that way. I have a basement sump too, and the water level changes when my return pump is turned off (unlike with your design). The only time it overflows is when the water level in the sum changes. It's for that reason that I have my skimmer linked to the return pump. If the return pump goes off, my skimmer does too. Then when the return pump turns back on, there's a 3 minute delay on the skimmer to allow the sump water level to get back to normal.

    That's an interesting design that you use...I can see what you mean about the water level being constant...even if the return pump goes off. I can't explain what could be causing your overflow other than maybe it overflows right after feeding. You should watch your skimmers after feeding and see what happens.

    When I adjust my skimmer, I make a small adjustment, then wait two or three days and see what the impact is. Then I adjust again if necessary. You may want to start adjusting things down slowly until you get to that point where you're getting the skimmate to the consistency you're looking for. With mine, the skimmate looks like sewer water...certainly nothing I would ever consider pouring back into my tank. Your skimmate shouldn't look like something you would consider pouring back into your tank. And maybe until you get things adjusted just right, it may be better to disconnect your collection cup from your skimmate collector so that you can see how much skimmate you're collecting daily. If you don't, then you could have one skimmer tuned just right, and the other one still skimming wet and you would never know which was which.

    Just some food for thought.

    --AJ
     
  18. PotRoast

    PotRoast Well-Known ReefKeeper

    999
    Ratings:
    +24 / 0 / -0
    I was just at home and I had water all over my floor. Interesting this happens the day after I post about all this. 
    Anyways, the skimmate locker was full and overflowing. The air pressurized 'float' valve (auto shutoff) failed and didn't turn off my overflowing skimmer. Or perhaps the breakout box has failed or perhaps the apex failed. I didn't have the time to troubleshoot it fully. 
    Either way I walked into the skimmate locker overflowing onto the floor and my skimmer was FLOWING WATER big time up into the collection cup. The chamber of my sump where I keep my reactor feed pumps was dry and my reactor pumps were running dry. The return pump was on and the water was dangerously low. 
    I put the apex on maintenance mode which shuts down my sump system. Then sat back and took a big breath.....
    OK the good part:
    1.I got to monitor a malfunctioning skimmer in real time.2. I realize that I need to also shut my my reactor pumps when the low level sump switch activates. Right now just my return pump shuts off. 
    The bad part:1. My skimmer: I still don't know what is wrong. I guess I will clean the pumps and hope for the best. 
     
  19. AJ

    AJ Inactive User

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    Wow...good thing you caught it! Just one of your skimmers or were both going crazy?

    --AJ
     
  20. PotRoast

    PotRoast Well-Known ReefKeeper

    999
    Ratings:
    +24 / 0 / -0
    I had my apex set wrong.....the skimmers were set to manual on. So that overrides the autoshutoff of the skimmate locker. That problem is solved. The overflowing skimmer problem is not solved.

    I love this hobby and hate it too.
     

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