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Trust, but verify.

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by AJ, Mar 10, 2010.

  1. AJ

    AJ Inactive User

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    Moral of the story:  Trust, but verify.
    So I've had some fish in a tank that's smaller than what's appropriate for them until my 120 was ready.  The stress of the confined quarters caused them to get ich and so I started researching how to treat it without chemicals, etc.  I came across a great article on Reef Central by Steve Pro that talked about treating the fish with hyposalinity at 1.009 to 1.010 for two weeks, and that will kill the ich.  So I decided to give that a shot. 
    I was talking to a good friend of mine about this and asked what kind of impact that would have on corals.  My friend said that SPS would die, but LPS and softies should be fine.  So I proceeded to slowly reduce the salinity over a period of two days.  This was where I made my mistake.  Now, this should have sent red flags up all over the place for me, but since I trusted the person, I just blindly believed it.  I took the advice, without verifying it.
    Some of my corals turned to brown jelly, almost right away.  I treated all of the corals with an iodine based coral dip, then an RO rinse and put them in another tank that had the correct salinity.  Over the next couple of days, I saw some of my corals die.  The frogspawn shriveled up and the flesh just fell off the skeleton.  Ricordeas literally dissolved.  An RBTA shriveled up and has just disappeared.  Another split into two and hid under a rock for days.   Over the next couple of days, I used a sponge in my nanocube and did 50% water changes daily to keep the water quality decent.  I lost a bunch of corals.   A BUNCH.  Almost all of my LPS including acans, frogspawn, blastos, etc.  Some of it was just really pissed and eventually pulled thru.  I don't think anything came thru unscathed...everything had some kind of damage to it.  Luckily my duncans pulled thru (one of my favorite corals).  The zoas and palys remained closed for days. 
    That was a week and a half ago now.  Many things are doing better.  Most of the zoas and palys are opening up now, not fully, but at least opening.  I know they will pull thru.  I lost all but one of my acans.  I also lost some of my original corals that I bought at my first Fall Fest,  like my purple tip frogspawn and my sun coral.  All in all, hundreds of dollars of corals were lost, but at least I was monitoring things and I was able to save some.
    Anyway, I'm not posting this for sympathy, but as a lesson to others.  On this site, there's lots of advice that gets passed around; and I would say most of it is good.  But occasionally, you'll get that one bad piece of information and it can be devastating.  So I go back to how I started this posting...trust, but verify.  Your tank is your responsibility.  Anything you choose to do to it, is on you; not on the person that told you to do it.  I don't blame the person that gave me the advice, I blame myself.  I didn't verify what they told me.  This was an expensive lesson for me, but I'm sure one that will stick with me for a very long time.
    --AJ
     
  2. Bluefool

    Bluefool Inactive User

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    Oh man. Thanks for sharing that, it might stop me from making the same mistake. Totally sucks for you, and I hope your tank bounces back.
     
  3. PotRoast

    PotRoast Well-Known ReefKeeper

    999
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    Good Lord.
     
  4. FishBrain Expert Reefkeeper

    New London
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    +399 / 6 / -0
    Wow that's a major bummer!
     
  5. Trevor0015

    Trevor0015 Inactive User

    490
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    Sorry for hearing that AJ, but really nice of you to share. There are a bunch of different reasons you could crash your reef tank and its nice to know of each story so you can prevent this from happening to you..

    Trevor
     
  6. phishcrazee Experienced Reefkeeper

    Riverside
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    Sorry for your losses /DesktopModules/ActiveForums/themes/_default/emoticons/sad.gif This hobby can be very humbling, that's for sure! At least I know how to get rid of any unwanted ricordia now /DesktopModules/ActiveForums/themes/_default/emoticons/smile.gif You have a barebottom tank, correct? When I had a wild pH swing once in my tank, my anemone sucked itself down into the sand where it had its foot attached. It appeared as if it had disappeared but 2 or 3 days later, a tiny very PO anemone started to appear from the sand. It eventually came all the way out......I suppose you would have seen yours by now, but just thought I'd mention maybe its in hiding somewhere. Thanks for sharing your experience......
     
  7. REEFer Madness

    REEFer Madness Inactive User

    867
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    Wow. Good thing spring swap is coming up. Thanks for the heads up. If you're messing with salinity, make sure it's a tank with fish only.
     
  8. SneakyPort

    SneakyPort Inactive User

    70
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    Kent Marine makes a medication that the food is dipped in and it is reef safe. Plus you know the fish is treated. I have had great sucess with it



     
  9. Waverz

    Waverz Expert Reefkeeper

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    I wouldn't think any corals would react well to a salinity level that low, sure maybe they would eventually recover but dang man 1.009 is uber low. It's sort of ironic, you basically nuked your stuff the exact opposite of the way I nearly nuked all mine, which by the way, have all recovered minus the ORA Hawkins Blue.

    I know your the President of the club and everything but you shouldn't be afraid to ask about this kind of stuff in the forums before you take the advice of just one of us.

    Sorry for your losses man, you know I have been there, done that. ( a few times, too many in fact)




     
  10. jtesdall

    jtesdall Expert Reefkeeper

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    Yes Hypo Salinity is for fish only but is very effective! I am guessing Steven Pro just forgot to say get the fish out. Hypo Salinity will kill Corals and Inverts.  You have to go down slowly and then raise it slowly. Remove the fish from the display and run it fallow (without fish) for atleast 6 weeks to go completely through its life-cycle. It must have a host to survive and inverts don't host. Also remember that the ich parasite has to be present in the first place and then stress brings it out.  Always Quarantine before going to the display! The only reason to use Hypo-Salinity is iff you have fish that won't tolerate copper. Copper is the best treatment following the same method as above, get the fish out and run the display fallow. If Hypo-Salinity or Copper are used with running the display fallow the parasite will arguabally be gone until it is re-introduced. Once it is there it stays although unseen.
    Most fish if they are strong and water params are good will fight Ich off themselves without any treatment but Garlic. Never trust reef safe treatments, none have been shown to not crash tanks in this club. People keep trying and tanks keep crashing. I think the Kent product is just Gralic isn't it?? That is fine and helps but will not work by itself if the fish are not strong and the water is not optimal.
    Since there seemed to be some questions on this I thought I would throw some of this in there for people's benefit who are not familiar with effectively treating this nasty parasite. So this is commentary and not meant to be a comment to AJ's original post.
     
  11. AJ

    AJ Inactive User

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    I'm really glad to hear your stuff came back.  You have some sweet stuff and that would have been horrible to have seen it all go.
    Yeah, I should have asked more...but it wasn't because of my position.  My position is administrative in nature...working with the rest of the officers to organize stuff and preparing for things.  I never equate it to my knowledge in the hobby or let it prevent me from asking questions.  I read a lot.  I ask opinions a lot.  In this case, I was just in a hurry.  I got careless.  Someone told me something and I took it and ran.  I didn't verify.  I didn't want the ich to progress too far before I started treatment.  I didn't want to loose anything (which I might add does seem like it's worked pretty well on the fish).  I still see myself as a noob with this stuff...I don't have near the experience as you or Jason G, Eric, JB, Craig, Sone, Joel, RC, etc...some of you guys that have been doing this stuff a really long time.  And speaking of experiened folks, I saw Bill lurking the other day...hope he's considering getting back in!  He was another gold mine of info and experience.
    Thanks for making sure that I didn't feel that way.  [​IMG]
    I posted so that others could know...not just about what happened to my stuff (that's really not the point), but to take the advice they get and verify it against multiples sources for accuracy.  If things conflict, dig deeper.  I try my best to make sure that what I tell others is accurate, but I'm sure I'm guilt of giving people bad info because maybe I didn't clarify something or I got confused.  I would hate to have someone make a mistake based on my bad information.
    --AJ
     
  12. adampottebaum

    adampottebaum Experienced Reefkeeper GIRS Member

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    AJ, I think you may have misunderstood the person who gave you this information. I too have heard many many people talk about how hypo salinity works great to cure ich in fish, but you have to do it in quarantine. The corals cannot go through this low salinity. You are supposed to only run the low salinity in a separate tank, fish only, inverts will not survive this hypo salinity. I think if you get a quarantine tank and run the salinity at the correct level(must be exact) you'll see results. I know if you go over the limit it won't do anything and anything lower than that and the fish will suffer.

    I'm sorry for your losses, it's pretty heart breaking loosing all those nice corals. Hopefully you'll be able to get some good deals at the Spring Fest to recover.
     
  13. AJ

    AJ Inactive User

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    Yeah, that's *always* possible with me.  /DesktopModules/ActiveForums/themes/_default/emoticons/hehe.gif
    --AJ
     
  14. craftpam

    craftpam Inactive User

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    AJ, so sorry to hear about your battle with ICH and the loss of the corals!

    Are the fish improving? Did it kill your live rock as well?

    Pam
     
  15. AJ

    AJ Inactive User

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    The fish are looking good. As far as killing the live rock, it has recently been cooked so there wasn't much visible life on it (i.e. featherdusters, etc), but based on what the rest of the people have been saying, I would not keep your rock in the hypo tank if you care about the feather dusters...but the benefit of leaving some in there is that you shouldn't have to worry about the tank having to cycle....but that could probably also be accomplished by doing a water change on your main tank and using that water for your QT tank.

    --AJ
     
  16. Eric Experienced Reefkeeper

    West Des Moines, IA
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    +33 / 0 / -0
    AJ,
    I saw this post the other day - sorry to hear that you lost so much - when you get settled in you can have frags of anything I have that would be of interest to you.
    Did you get the salinity down to .009-.010 or did the corals stress before that point?
    Did the fish ever show stress?
    I recently treated with copper and would have tried the hypo had I not started dosing coppersafe.
    Petco in West Des Moines keeps their fish display @ 1.019 to "combat ich", but from what I've read that level will just save salt.
    -Eric
     
  17. AJ

    AJ Inactive User

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    Thanks for the offer Eric!  Maybe I'll take you up on that and get a frag of that pocillipora I gave you a while back.  What color was that again?  I just got some pink from JB last night, but I think that stuff was green, right?
    The salinity was not all the way down to the target of 1.009 when I noticed the stress.  The whole thing is kind of running together in my memory.  I wouldn't put money on it, but I would say around 1.016...about 1/2 way to target.
    The fish have never showed stress.  All of them are swimming around, and eating very well. 
    Yeah, based on what Craig said, 1.019 wouldn't do anything. 
    --AJ
     
  18. Eric Experienced Reefkeeper

    West Des Moines, IA
    Ratings:
    +33 / 0 / -0

    No worries -  and yes it's green!

    -Eric
     

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